January 2008 with Radio Goethe in English

Interview: January 2008, Radio Goethe

Attempting to write anything new about Rammstein is pointless. Why should you? For years the heavy metal band from Berlin has been in the spotlight, described, explained, insulted, ignored, praised, loved, and hated from every side. Most of these articles and analysis can be confidently be thrown into the garbage. So much nonsense has been written about Rammstein you could build a paper bridge going across the Atlantic. We at Radio Goethe think Rammstein are great, and that's fair to say. With a hard sound combined with German lyrics, they have achieved something unique. Simply take a look at the latest release Volkerball, a DVD with concerts recorded from Russia, England, France, and Japan. Young people are united by the sound German sound. My experiences in the USA also showed me that Rammstein has opened up access to the German language, culture, and Germany in general for fans. For established stuck-up culture figures and critics, this is a punch to the gut. The fact remains, Rammstein have achieved something with their sound that others have tried to do in vain. They made a younger generation in all parts of the world interested in Germany, the language, and culture.

Radio Goethe reporter Nina Pauler spoke in Berlin with Rammstein guitarist Paul Landers about history, stories, and rough metal musicians who don't have delicate fingers.

Question: Paul, you're in the most internationally successful German language band with six million albums sold. Do you remember how it all started?

Paul: Yeah, it started very small. What I remember is that at the start, people always said to us, "It's a shame you don't sing in English. Otherwise, you could have international success." We always reply back, "Yeah a shame. But no other way." Because we couldn't sing in English and didn't want to. Because we thought that this was the only way we could do this. We weren't sad about it. Strangely enough at festivals in Germany, American bands would sometimes come up to us after the concert and tell us, "Hey, you guys have to come over to our place. People there would love you." We would reply, "Really? You think so? But we sing in German." "No, that doesn't matter. Come on over."

Then we tried on our own merit to expand our reach to play worldwide and that wasn't easy to do. Because it's not common for German bands to want to play internationally. The structures aren't there at all, so it doesn't exist. Apart from national acts that are only active in Germany, record companies only have things like Robbie Williams. They are told what to do. Given the [album] artwork. But it's the other way around, the German record company tells the American one what the artwork should look like and they don't even know that [process]. So this telephone line doesn't even exist. It only goes so far.

Question: How did you manage anyway?

Paul: Perseverance. The first concert in New York was in front of 15 people. The last one was in front of 4,000. The first one was horrid. It was six in the morning combined with jet lag, it was basically afternoon. I didn't feel in the mood anymore. We waited there. The club didn't have a backstage room. We stood there on the street and waited. We weren't allowed to light any fire. And if we aren't allowed to make any fire, we always had an alternative of Flake riding around on Till and spurring him with a fluorescent tube [light]. Such as tapping him on the bottom with it and hitting him over the head. That was the effect. We always found it very amusing. However, what we didn't know was that American fluorescent tubes have thicker glass and don't break. (laughs) Then they stood there and Flake tried desperately to shatter the tube, and eventually it did break. A broken piece flew and struck into Schneider the drummer's shoulder and stayed there. Till was covered in blood, and Flake also cut himself. It was like hell. The people who were there all thought: "What kind of crazies are these?" The security guards shook their heads, they were black. They both looked at us and thought, "What kind of crazy Germans are you?" That's how it started. Then the 15 who were there probably said to their friends, "Hey if they come back, you gotta come and see."

Question: And then there were more.

Paul: At the second concert, there was 300. So if a band is somehow attractive to an audience, then word gets around to get people interested.

Question: Of course, but it must take some endurance when you see only 15 people at your first concert. Although in America, you probably wouldn't be impressed by that at first.

Paul: Well, we come from the East and for us it was like this: if there were 15 people there, then you didn't really play at all. And if there was 3,000 there, then you made a big effort. Thank god we were in America on our private time before we founded Rammstein. We saw that American bands also play in front of two people as if their lives are at stake. Because one of them could be a manager. They play on their own as if their life depended on this. We copied that. We also can play while people were sitting and eating. That's important. You have to be able to do that. That's not so common with German bands, actually. For example, during Mardi Gras in New Orleans the bar is empty and the band starts playing. And people will go past. If the band is good, they'll check it out and then they stay. Then the room gets fuller if the band is good. Afterwards, the room is really jammed. It's so crazy. At the beginning, they have to play so well that the person watching will like it. We really copied that from Americans.

Question: When you started, this hard scene wasn't popular here at all. There was heavy metal from the US, but German bands didn't play such heavy work. How did you come up with the idea of doing that?

Paul: We're lucky we don't really care about current trends. When we started Nirvana was popular, so that was grunge. And the Hamburg band Selig. I always watched MTV or VIVA and always thought: "oh god, this has to be done better." Our idea was to combine rock music with sequencers. Machines and humans working together like that and making it hard [sounding]. So it began. But over time, we've also had some development experiences. We're a little different now as well. The new album we're working on now [LIFAD] is completely different. A particular style of music always depends on the taste of individuals in a band, and everyone can have a different taste. But in the end that's what we put out.

Question: Do you all have pretty hard tastes in music?

Paul: The bassist Oliver really likes weird, odd rhythms, and he likes moody and evil music. He likes that. With Flake it has to be weird or original. He doesn't like harmonies and it has be odd. Schneider likes hard instruments. Till has a broad spectrum, from classical to crypt. Richard likes rock.

As for me, it has to be original. The musical genre isn't important. It has to be different to what others are doing because there's no need to do it twice. It already exists. You can't always manage it, but that's the goal. That you really try to give the song legitimacy that you can say, "listen to this, you've never heard anything like it before." It's very rare. But when you get to have a moment like that, it's always good. For example the White Stripes. You can say, "this hasn't been done before." They haven't reinvented music, but they have some legitimacy that lets you say: I get it.

For example, that's what I like about a band. That's why I don't have a specific musical genre. It has to have some legitimacy and be original. Not the 1000th Manson or Korn copy. Nobody needs that. German bands particularly tend to emulate certain people. Mostly American or British bands. They don't have a real identity, really. Because Germans generally don't have real identities. Musically, they don't seem to want to be true to themselves. They hide behind other cliches from other cultures to not be obvious they're German.

Question: You said the new album will be entirely different, but Rammstein has an identity now also.

Paul: Yeah, of course. It's like Robert de Niro. Although he plays different roles, he always is Robert de Niro. And a Mercedes is always a Mercedes. It's totally crazy. Everyone has their own signature style, and we're trying to do something different once again. The last two albums had a lot of ketchup and mayo on them. I would call them a bit schmaltzy. Now we want to make it crisper, a bit harder, a bit more steam, and let the wind blow again. And really give it a rough knock.

Question: When will the new album release?

Paul: That's a very good question. (laughs) We are currently pre-producing about 30 demo mode ideas and in about another three weeks the songs will available as proper demos. Then 20 of them are tossed out and work is done on the 10 best ones. I think the album could release at the end of the year. We will probably start recording in the spring.

Question: Do songs you throw out really get tossed entirely? Or do they maybe go into a cabinet where you take them out another time?

Question: On the Volkerball DVD, you see French, English, and Japanese people singing enthusiastically along to your lyrics. How do you explain the fact this concept works?

Paul: Perhaps it's because there's no concept here. Most seem to assume that something is successful based on some kind of intent to be. I enjoy reading the biographies of inventors and the like. Many inventions are made by accident, like the gramophone. The best inventions are always made by mistake. Our band isn't a concept now. Our concept, if you really want to call it that, was: if everyone is wearing shorts, we wear pants. If everyone has long hair, we'll have short hair. If everyone sings in English, then we will sing in German. That was our concept, actually. To not follow the usual paths taken.

Additionally, we're from the East and so, compared to West Germans, very unconcerned with authority. So we don't think: "oh if we do this now, then it's possible such-and-so person might not like this." We don't really have this expected submission to an authority. Or on the other hand, whenever we tried to be that by the book, it's always backfired on us. So our best recipe is, just do it. That's something I can only advise everyone should do. It's exactly when you're not allowed to do it, that it becomes of interest. Then usually something comes about from that. Beauty always lies beyond a mountain, like the sea. If you shy away from confrontation and hurdles, then things remain lukewarm.

Question: So you could say you pulled through with this plan, ending up with a pleasant surprise.

Paul: Yeah we basically walked in the opposite direction and still reached the sea, from the other side.

Question: And everyone goes running after you.

Paul: (laughs) No well, no one chased behind us. I would have been glad if someone did. There was this small German wave after that. The record companies, as cute as they are, thought that it's enough if you had a deep voice and sing in German. Then it will be successful. But that simply wasn't enough. As for singing in German, I think when music and lyrics come together it doesn't matter the language. As long as you don't sing in Swedish. (laughs) Because Swedish sounds really bad, "höksölöw", it sounds terrible. It sounds like it's spelled backwards. Or Czech. There may be languages that aren't suitable for singing, but there are good languages for singing. For example, French sounds really, really good. Russian sounds very good. English of course. German is a bit harsh and if the artist managed to get the lyrics and music together, it's then enjoyable.

You'll notice that if you listen to Reise, Reise right now, for example. That sounds good. You don't understand a word, but you sing along anyway and that's beautiful. In that case, it doesn't have to be in English to be understood. It can also be in German that one doesn't understand and it doesn't matter. When we went to concerts as teens, we didn't understand what they were singing in English either. Or with "Smoke on the Water", I didn't know what it meant. But I sang along in the discotheque anyway. The Americans don't have to understand it either. There are normal people who just enjoy some good music. They don't need to understand German more than we would need to understand English in rock music.

Question: You could actually sing in Russian.

Paul: Yeah, we could too. But we're not Russian. Let the Russians do it. They have such wonderful melodies. Anyway, we have a few Russian lyrics in one of our songs. So we don't absolutely refuse to sing in other languages. But it has to happen somehow [on its own].

Question: Why do you think "cultural workers" have such problems with you? Although you've achieved something they haven't really managed to do. Particularly getting young people, and even older adults, to maybe learn German.

Paul: I can understand why a highly educated individual who comes from a sheltered home may have a problem when confronted with us. For example, people who work at the Goethe Institutes are usually well educated types with delicate fingers. Then these crass, heavy built East rockers show up with huge sledgehammers and smash everything to bits. I understand why some may reject this at first. However, we've also noticed that people who can loosen up are able to see past this facade and know where our strengths are. Those who are practically not afraid.

It's usually some really smart ones who end up liking us. The slightly simpler type like us, then comes the cowards and those who want to do things right. Who are totally politically correct and for god's sake, don't want any issues. Then come the brave, smart ones who realize what really makes us tick and dares to enjoy us. There's many who like us, but don't dare to say that because they believe it's disallowed. We're aware of that, but we can't change it. We used to be quite surprised by all the things blamed on us.

In our naiveness, our search for our roots led us to open many doors that shouldn't have been opened. We didn't know any of that. We rummaged through German history without any care to find a German identity. We had no idea that it's difficult to have any identity at all in Germany. You most certainly are not supposed to say you're German, that's already mmh... well if you were to say, "I think it's good to be German" - oh no. When people say, "I like being Hungarian" or "I'm proud to be Russian or American". That's something allowed to be said. And we thought, as we were naive, that you could do that in German as well. We never actually said it, but that was the general impression.

It's a matter of saying: This is my country and I'm from here. I don't need to hide. I'm unashamed. I don't think it's particularly great right now, but I'm not ashamed of it either. That's always been our message, but we've learned that you have to be sensitive about it. We still hold this view, but we can accept when others aren't as far along as we are. We've gone ahead a bit too far. Germany is slowly developing more, relaxing slowly, and realizing it's not all that bad in the end. That Germany is just a country like any other one, or is slowly becoming one. That Germans have their perks, too. That they're actually quite lovely when you look at them from a worldwide perspective. I can only speak about the world because we're always traveling around. And that's when we notice how people feel about us. Germans should definitely breathe, exhale, and appreciate themselves.

Question: Do you always get a good response?

Paul: Always. Even when it has nothing to do with the band. Even when you're traveling. But back to the question about why so many have a problem with us. I think we come across as pretty brutal and off putting at first glance to the politically correct crowd.

There are always people in society who are looking for trouble. Mostly teenagers who want to annoy their parents and they listen to stuff like Marilyn Manson or Slipknot and it's not about even enjoying it. It's about having something their parents don't like, something that scares their parents. In some regard, we serve that role too. We don't really fit into a concept. We're a bit edgy and not so easy to consume, and we play with taboo topics and see what is allowed and what isn't. We're on the fringes between good taste and how German you're allowed to be. We're poking around in there, lifting up old piles of manure to see what smells, what doors we can open, and that's actually fun.

Slowly, even the apostles of justice and political correctness are realizing they cannot stop the country from relaxing some. Our producer is Swedish and he also said that 20 years ago in Sweden, no one was allowed to raise a Swedish flag. That was considered nationalistic and frowned upon then and now slowly, some Swedes have their flags flying from their flagpole in their garden sheds, and everyone realized it's not so bad after all. You're not automatically a Nazi for merely raising up a flag like that. Other than that, if an average Germans could calm down a bit and relax some, then it's those on the far-right who wouldn't stand a chance. Then basically the last thing they have is taken away and that would take the wind from their sails. When they shout "German!" and you could say, "Yeah, I think that's good too". That would be nice. Because they wouldn't have that justification anymore.

Question: You just mentioned this, that you push the boundaries of good taste and I think you do it in a very humorous style. Still, there are people who always want to pin something on you because you're provocative. Even on stage, like when Till comes out with a pot during Mein Teil. How does that work for you guys? Do you discuss it beforehand?

Paul: We do like provoking people, but I've realized is that you cannot artificially create it. You cannot just sit there as a band and think, "what could we provoke with?" and then come up with something and do that. That might work once but in the long run, people see through it. In the long run, it's not fun either. That's how things are for us: we enjoy it. We think it's good teasing people a little and confusing them. We couldn't always enjoy being too proper. It wouldn't appeal to us. That's why we don't sit there overthinking it. We don't have to try hard at all. It comes naturally. If anything, we have to slow ourselves down.

We just sit there and all we can thin of is non-sense, which often has us laughing like crazy over. Then we perform it with the deadliest seriousness so people don't realize it's meant to be funny and comes naturally to us to so. We don't have to try at all. I also talk with bands sometimes and stuff, and I tell them: "why don't you try things like that?" Then they reply, "No, the record label would drop us out." Then I think, well maybe that would be good.

Question: Do you have a lot of freedom [at the label]?

Paul: I knock on wood but nothing can go wrong right now, we're free to do as we want. Let me give you a small example. We were once on MTV at a live broadcast in London and they treated us like the ultimate assholes. They were disgusting to us. We'd already agreed beforehand that we wanted to use pyrotechnics. All of a sudden they said, "No, you're not allowed to." We had two songs to play and we played the first one and during the second song, Till spat up a little blood. It was silly for an afternoon show. Then they said, "If you do anything like that, we'll cut it off." Then they cut us off and aired some news. Then they said, "Banned from MTV forever." So we said, "Well, we're banned from MTV then my god..." A year or two later they came back, "Can we play your music? How do we do that? We're sorry."

I don't want to say that we're the big stag because we disregard everything, but we have our limits. So far, it's always been the opposite, actually. We've done essentially everything to get kicked out, but somehow we're still around anyway. There's nothing more risky than a band being boring, so then nobody notices anything. Maybe it works if you have really good music. (laughs) Like James Blunt or whatever his name is. He can stay that way. He puts on Corduroy pants and then sings something. But that's not how we think. Even we didn't say to MTV either, "Let's cause them trouble now." But they treated us in a really disgusting way and were unfair.

Then we were in London and had live pyrotechnics again. 2,000 people stood in front of the venue. Then they said, "No, you can't [play]." And we said, "Well, then we'll just have to go home again." We went back home again that was so dumb for the fans. We explained this them and they were so pissed off. Then we played there again and there were 4,000 people and we were allowed to use pyrotechnics. In that regard, one should stay consistent. That's always good.

Question: What's it like within the band? Are you good friends, were you friends before, does the band keep you together?

Paul: It's always shifting. At first, we were just friends. Then we were friends and a band. Then for a while, we were only a band. Now we're a band and friends again. So it's always swaying. Of course we have our problems and there have been arguments, but somehow the six of us have always found the strength to pull together. We've been lucky so far.

Question: Is there anything else you still want to do? You're now worldwide stars...

Paul: Oh worldwide... what else do we want to do? Actually, we enjoy making music. I know what you mean. Maybe a play or film score someday. However so far, we're doing exactly what we enjoy. We come up with a show and tour with it. God willing, we will make a good album. Here in Germany, we actually have the oldest audience in regards to age. We get fans around Peter Maffay's age. Though young people come too, but otherwise it's actually a decent mix across Europe. However in Germany, it's the oldest. But I get that as well. We're kind of the [Herbert] Grönemeyer of hard rock here. (laughs)

Question: What is the truth behind the rumor of Till leaving the band?

Paul: Some American website spread that. At the time, we were at the Baltic Sea making music together like the old days. We were more intense than ever. We hadn't heard a thing about it and then suddenly the phones and cell phones started ringing everywhere. "Are you breaking up?" And we were like, "What???" Anyway, it was only a rumor from some website and others copied it. So, knocking on wood, but Till has never been a threat to the band. He's good natured, friendly, and absolutely has no ambitions.

Question: That's also something that interests many people who probably don't get to meet you in person. The traits "good natured friendly" aren't exactly the first things that spring to mind when one thinks of Rammstein.

Paul: Yet everyone knows the tough ones are usually friendly and the pop stars tend to be the troublesome ones. So we're quite lucky that we grew very slow and that we'd already had a fair amount of success for 10 years prior to our success finally achieved. We were capable of growing into it. It didn't get to our heads. The people who know us, know that most of us are still here. We haven't been corrupted by power and money.

Question: How would you describe the [music] scene during the time of the DDR when you were already making music with Flake?

Paul: It was more intimate. Everyone knew each other. What people in the West didn't realize was, when you live under a dictatorship, you have a common enemy and that's pretty great. It sounds a tad odd now, but I can only recommend it to everyone. Nothing brings people together more than finding the government stupid. It really is stupid; it's non-sense. All it does is give you things to mock. It still like that a bit now too but it was way more clear-cut back in the East. Now it's more obtuse. That's very agreeable and it brings everyone together because you have a common enemy. And there was a trendy cafe and a trendy shop, and you'd go there to meet everyone. Now it's all so scattered. It's so much more complicated. There are a thousand different clubs and all. It's more diverse now. Back then, it was more concentrated and private.

Question: The CD "Spannung, Leistung Widerstand" features numerous creative East German bands. We in the West only really knew about Karat and Pudhys. But in the East, there was a very vibrant scene.

Paul: In the East, there were three levels. The top levels was what you mentioned: the official state sanctioned bands. Everyone actually thought they were dumb. They were completely rejected by the youths. Then was the middle level. Those were bands that didn't appear on TV or get played on the radio, but had a performance permit. You needed a performance permit in the East, just like a driver's license. But such bands like that weren't a suitable fit [for the mainstream]. We were a part of that group. The lowest levels was the punk bands who only played private parties, in church basements, and at birthdays. So they were never allowed to play formally because they didn't have the performance permit. That was too silly for them. Those were the three levels in the East, and officially only the top one.

Question: But the government would have known those scenes existed. How did it tolerate it? Or why?

Paul: There were too many. You cannot put them all in jail, instead they caused massive disruptions. Everyone was all under surveillance too. There were Stasi informants in a lot of bands. In my punk band [Die Firma], I was in two, there were two members in one of them who were being used by the Stasi.

Question: When did you find out about that?

Paul: Afterward.

Question: What happened after the fall of the wall? Did the sense of unity collapse?

Paul: No, it happened slowly. First there was the wonderful year of anarchy in Berlin. It was so unbelievable. Where nobody had a say. I understand why there's terrorism in Iraq. Because even here in an orderly Germany, the transition from East to West from one society system to another, was chaotic. Many walked right into a house, installed a lock or something, and said, "This is mine now." Nobody said anything. Because the East German police didn't dare [act] and the West German police weren't responsible. In this grey area of no jurisdictions, anarchy absolutely reigned.

Everyone did whatever they wanted. It was total insanity. People were driving around in cars that were not registered. I remember it was an unbelievable mess and everything was allowed. The police stood helpless on the streets. They were without power and helpless to do further. If you were in the West and a cop pulled you over you'd say, "I'm from the East. How was I supposed to know?" In the East, they wouldn't listen to you either. "I'm from the West, what do you want from me?" So it was completely mad.

Question: What were you doing during that time?

Paul: We were squatting houses and tried to secure public jobs to get money from the government. We supported alternative projects and theater. I worked at Tacheles in Berlin. Which is still an alternative venue. Then I worked in the theater and two of my bands still played a bit in the West. Until we realized that was nonsensical. That was funny as well. We'd already been pushing the limits of what was allowed in the East. We were right on the edge of what was possible to back in the East. The edge of what was possible without being jailed. When the wall fell, we were right in the middle. Suddenly, we were sort of funny.

Question: Were you ever afraid to end up in prison?

Paul: We always took our lead from "The Good Soldier Švejk". We always pretended to not know what we're doing or how. If we had lyrics that were against the state, we sang them in English. During the screening to get the permit to perform, we'd just pick from other songs. Or we'd imitate random songs. Then at shows themselves, you just play whatever you wanted. The Stasi's recording technology might not have been good enough to prove what we were singing. Maybe our equipment was so poor, you couldn't hear anything anyway.

From a West German perspective, the East seems pretty restrictive but that wasn't the case at all. From my perspective the East was like a big kindergarten. The Stasi were very strict but if you knew some tricks, it didn't matter. We lived like maggots in bacon. ["lap of luxury"] We were not typical, however. There were many who suffered and ended up jailed for nothing.

We somehow maneuvered through it. Nothing bad happened at all. But I also know a bassist who suffered. Even though he never did anything. His family was in huge trouble. They also applied for an exit visa, and then you'd always get in trouble [for that]. But with us... the East always full of gaps after gap. There was one market gap after another, and we stayed in those gaps.

I wasn't in the army either. None of us were in the army. We managed that somehow. It wasn't exactly easy, but somehow wasn't that hard either. We didn't work either. We had a lot of money. To give an example to understand it in the East, you would buy a sheet and some cleaning cloths, and then someone would have a pattern for a jacket. On a Veritas East German sewing machine, you would sew the cleaning cloths into the pre-dyed sheets, quilt them pink, added a zipper, and then sold the jacket for 400 Ostmarks. That was half a month's worth salary. You sewed four to five jackets a day. Then drove to the Baltic Sea and came back with 2,000 marks.

That means you basically had twice as much as the honest, friendly East German worker and you didn't have to do anything. All alternative [lifestyle people] made a living that way. They either made jewelry, or Till wove baskets. He could weave himself a car in a week or two if he wanted. Since there wasn't much available in the East, you could build things really quickly. I wasn't exactly business savvy either. I went along with it. Take t-shirt printing, for an example. I helped a friend out once and we stood there and sold them. I always got some [of the money]. So it was really easy to make money illegally and we were chill about it.

Question: And now you're making a lot of money legally.

Paul: Yeah, it's actually pretty harsh. Things were going quite well for me in the East. Relatively speaking, I had a lot of money. Now I'm making a lot of money again in the West. So that's pretty tough. Actually, it's really tough. I've been lucky and I'm happy about it. I mean, being poor in the West is horrible. I imagine it would be nuts. That's why I'm happy everyday that we exist and we do such cool things. Even get paid for it by the fans. I think it's absolutely incredible.